Renault clio 1.2 16v 2001 running problems

[teerak2uk]

hi Guys

got the above vehicle to hand at te moment that is proving to be a headache and any advice/idea are welcome so basically here it is


renault 1.2 16v starts and runs ok but after a few minues of driving starts to to stall at junctions and mil comes on rev it to 3000 it then clears and light goes off sometimes codes can be read and sometime there is`nt any but when read always shows the same.

manifold pressure sensor
downstream short to 12v

so had at hand the same car but 2003 model so swapped the two sensors but problem is still there so this is where the headache starts have racked my brain and the net and seems to be alot of these wth this problem and most seem to point at the engine loom so decided to swap the loom,manifold and throttle body complete then started it all seemed fine until the next morning and he problem came back with the same 2 codes

so checked live data and seems to downstream sensor was switching up and down but not very often so swapped it with the one from the good runner and was the same so swapped it back because the customer needed the good car back so put the problems car downstream sensor back in and now shows to be switching even more but no donor parts available so does anyone think it is possibe that all this is caued from a crap cat?


many thanks

[racin-snake]

what did you scan this with and do you have the codes ?

[teerak2uk]

Scanned with snap on modis and cant remember the codes but basically it was manifold pressure sensor and the other was downstream sensor (o2 sensor after cat)

[dafdiagnos]

does it start & run ok from warm or just from cold m8? it sounds temperature related

[racin-snake]

my thoughts too also map would cause a problem too after warmup as the inj time would drop making a weaker mixture for the hot engine
so codes definition would maybe have made the difference
also air volume of overrun and sevo draw would drop the mixture further hence the cut out
and throwing the 02 sensor code on open loop
any chance exact code descriptions or some live data of tps and map at idle and wot ?

[BazT]

Hi The map sensor code would probably be triggered by the stalling (loss of manifold pressure) The second code downstream sensor would not cause the engine to stall. I would try cleaning the throttle body and re set the throttle adoptions.

BazT

[Albanais]

Hi The map sensor code would probably be triggered by the stalling (loss of manifold pressure) The second code downstream sensor would not cause the engine to stall. I would try cleaning the throttle body and re set the throttle adoptions.

BazT

Your diagnosis are correct mate but I have one idea mor to add. If the engine has a motorized throttle I sugest you for first to repair the earth point on the gearbox the nut may be loosen, then you make re initialising of the motorized throttle.Earth point has caused me big head aches in past, fix the earth point then deal other problems.
Cheers

[teerak2uk]

car is better when cold as for throttle body i changed the whole intake manifold complete with throttle body and engine loom from a good runner so no probs there as for earths have been through them and all check out ok so going to connect my can clip in the morning and see what it shows on a cat test

[Albanais]

car is better when cold as for throttle body i changed the whole intake manifold complete with throttle body and engine loom from a good runner so no probs there as for earths have been through them and all check out ok so going to connect my can clip in the morning and see what it shows on a cat test

The aim is not changing every thing, I asked you if the throttle is motorized or not, if it is motorized then make re-initializing of the throttle through the injection ecu when the car is cold, check the earth cable as well.

[rideon]

Just a thought...when the car is "broken" check live data: 1.manifold pressure 2.atmospheric pressure and report back

[teerak2uk]

The aim is not changing every thing, I asked you if the throttle is motorized or not, if it is motorized then make re-initializing of the throttle through the injection ecu when the car is cold, check the earth cable as well.


but when you have access to a good running one then sometimes is easier to eliminate the fault by changing parts from a good running one and yes it does have a motorized throttle, all earths are good

just done a cat test because of the downstream o2 sensor continually switching and cat is now running at 99% effiency so maybe i have an issue with a temp sensor

[the_riddler]

This is more a general guide, Not vehicle specific..

i have seen a crank sensor where +5v signal output was allways pressent,
But 0.0v was lifting to + 1.5v, ( when Engine block got hot ) Causing all-sorts of issues,
but did not record a code..

So i would suggest ( if you allready havent ) you scope
Crank , Cam, Maf / Mas,

[rideon]

Still think is a pressure sensor,there are 2 in this car if i remember,one is in manifold the other is in ecu,easiest thing to do is to replace MAP.
If I'm right, the spark plugs should be black and smoked

[bo0st]

common problems in 1,2 16V renault engines:
cylinder head gasket - oil leakage
injector faulty ( electrically or mechanically) - missfire
ignition module - missfire
manifold silicone gasket bad assembled from fabric - warm missfire or low power
rarely MAP (pressure sensor) - misfire or low power and rich mixture

check valve clearance if you dont find any failure!

[teerak2uk]

wont be map sensor as i had previously swapped it from a good running car

after noticing on live data that the downstream sensor (sensor after cat) is continually switching giving concern this could be a bad cat or on its way out so have connected my can clip and ran a cat tested procedure basically tells you to start wait until warmed up, 2 cycles of engine cooling fan then rev the vehicle to 3000rpm for 1 minute then idle then 4500rpm for 1minute from what i recal and then monitors the temp of the cat and give you a percentage of efficiency (mine was 99%) so after replaced the temp sensor as the can be a nightmare sometimes and dont cost that much now back on live data and downstream seems to be ok even though i have seen it switch but very rare so time will tell but i think if it cames back then it may be time for a cat

[racin-snake]

try a tem reading with an ir temp guage of the ftont and rear of the cat front and rear should be within 50 degrees or less of each other
easy test and also make sure there are no air leaks or a evap unit pipe snapped

[racin-snake]

try a tem reading with an ir temp guage of the ftont and rear of the cat front and rear should be within 50 degrees or less of each other
easy test and also make sure there atre no air leaks or a evap unit pipe snapped have yoy checked the timing ?
known for crank keways to snap

[teerak2uk]

dont have an ir temp reader but was advised to be looking at around 500oC for a good cat and t was at 700oc at the start of the test so would indicate a blockage but settled to 539oC after so will have to wait and see what happens next

[Meat-Head]

sorry, still bozeyed from last night.

Do a google search for 'MILF Elminator' SORRY 'MIL Elminator'
Popular on US ebay and have a look for threads on Ford Mustang sites.

What it is is a capacitor and resistor on the REAR lambarda probe to fool the ecu so you can take the cat off

Also include radio shack in your search.

HTH
Meat.

[teerak2uk]

sorry, still bozeyed from last night.

Do a google search for 'MILF Elminator' SORRY 'MIL Elminator'
Popular on US ebay and have a look for threads on Ford Mustang sites.

What it is is a capacitor and resistor on the REAR lambarda probe to fool the ecu so you can take the cat off

Also include radio shack in your search.

HTH
Meat.

will it fail next mot tough?

[Meat-Head]

will it fail next mot tough?

Dunno, but worth a try for testing though

[teerak2uk]

EXAMPLE IS FROM A CELICA

Parts Needed to make bypass:

Radio Shack Part Numbers:
# 2721434 -- 1MFD Cap.
# 2711356 -- PK5 1MEG 1/4 W


Introduction:
Recently, I installed a custom staight pipe for off-road use only. Since the new exhaust does not have a Catalytic Converter this generates an error code in the computer which causes the check engine light to come on. This does not really hurt anything since the code just reports that the cat is not functioning properly. However, staring at the check engine light can be a little worrisome since you do not know if anything else may be trying to trip the light! The light might also trigger an open-loop hindering performance. Not to mention, the light also shines like a sun in your face at night.

About the 02 Sensor:
Building a set of MIL Eliminators gave me a chance to learn quite a bit about the emissions system of my car. Before proceeding I would like to share that information with you so that you can become more familiar with these mysterious 02 sensors.

The 02 sensor can be considered a small batery that has an operating range of 0 to 1 volt when fully warmed up to 600F. Its voltage depends on the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream.

All 02 sensors are vented to the atmosphere which contains Approximately 21% oxygen. The exhaust of the gasoline Powered engine typically contains up to 2% oxygen. The Sensor's output voltage depends on the oxygen content of the exhaust stream. That is, if the exhaust has 2% oxygen, it is lean. This produces a low voltage, below .3 volts (300millivolts). If the exhaust has near 0% oxygen, it is rich. This produces a high voltage, above .6 volts (600millivolts). These voltages are sent to the computer and it reacts by adjusting the air/fuel ratio. This is commonly known as the 02 feedback system and when this system is operating it is said to be in "closed loop". When it is not operating, meaning the computer is not reading and responding to the oxygen sensor, it is said to be in "open loop".

Keep in mind that the computer uses all the sensors to control timing, fuel mixture and emission systems. The 02 sensor as an input is used by the computer to keep the mixture as balanced as possible. When the air/fuel ratio is "balanced" it is at 14.7 parts of air to 1 part fuel by weight. That means that for every pound of gasoline the engine burns, it will need 14.7 pounds of air. Keep in mind that oxygen occupies only 21% of the total air volume needed by the engine. The term "stoichiometric" is the term refering to the point at which the catalyctic converter can be at its maximum effiency when converting the three major pollutants (CO, HC, NOX) into harmless emissions (CO2, H2O, N, H).

The computer can only use the sensors output information under certain conditions. First, the sensor must be hot to produce a normal signal (600F). This is why most sensors today have built-in heaters to counteract the cooling effects of prolonged idling and to achieve closed loop mode sooner during warm-up. Heating the sensor also keeps it cleaner and extends its life considerably. The heater ussually gets voltage from a constant "key-on" source like the fuel pump relay fuse. This is what the four wires on the celicas 02 sensors are. The four wires are; 02 sensor output, 02 sensor ground, 12 volt heater feed, and heater ground. On 3 wire sensors, the 02 sensor grounds through its case and doesn't require a seperate ground wire.

Secondly, the computer is programed not to go into closed loop operation until the coolant temperature sensor tells the computer the engine is warmed up. If the system tries to go into closed loop too early in the warm up period, the leaning effect on the system would cause drivability problems and pollutants.

Thirdly, the computer is also programmed to ignore the 02 sensor at near wide open throttle conditions. Maximum power requires maximum enrichment.

Also, some manufacturers have built-in time delay. For example, on some GM models, closed loop is delayed for 1 to 2 minutes every time the car starts. This allows engine stabilization to take palce before the engine goes into closed loop.

In order to read the 02 sensor, most computers send out a certain voltage to the output terminal of the sensor. This is typically around 450 millivolts. Since we know that the sensor sends low voltage (under 300mv) when a lean condition is present and high voltage (over 600mv) when rich condition is present, the computer can count the number of times the sensor crosses the 450mv mark. Cross-counts are the number of times the 02 sensor crosses 450mv. A scanner can "look" at this for you. Even though you can't see the numbers of cross counts without a scanner, you can use a digital voltmeter to watch the open/closed loop system operate.

Building MIL Eliminators:


After absorbing the previous information we can now see how easy it would be to create some MIL Eliminators. There are two 02 sensors on the car, one before and one after the cat. The 02 sensor after the cat is the one used to read emissions, and it is the one that we need to change to make the MIL light go off. The 02 sensor on the celica is a 4 wire type sensor. The four wires are the following:
Black Wire- 12volt heater
Black Wire- Heater Ground
Blue Wire- Output Signal (goes into ECU)
White Wire- 450 millivolts reference signal sent from the computerWe know that after the cat the mixture should be lean (because the cats function is to burn up any excess fuel that the engine did not) so all we have to do is make the Output Signal sense a low voltage (under 300mv) reading and oscillate the reading to make it look like a working sensor. This can be done via the following painfully simple circuit:

Step One:
Pull back the carpet by the fuse box on the passenger side to reveal the grey o2 sensor plug and unplug it.

http://www.newcelica.org/photopost/data/500/thumbs/23301P6290649.JPG

Step Two:
Sever the Blue wire and bridge them back together using part (#2711356 PK5 1meg 1/4 W)
http://www.newcelica.org/photopost/data/500/thumbs/23301P6290650.JPG
http://www.newcelica.org/photopost/data/500/thumbs/23301P6290653.JPG


Step Three:
Splice the White wire (do not cut) and bridge it with the Blue wire using part (# 2721434 -- 1MFD Cap). Make sure you bridge the blue and white wire before the Resistor coming from the ECU.

http://www.newcelica.org/photopost/data/500/thumbs/23301P6290654.JPG
Step Four:
Reconnect 02 sensor by pluging it in, then pull the ecu 15w fuse to reset it and you now have a Catalytic Bypass.




http://www.newcelica.org/photopost/data/500/medium/11971DSC01168.JPG
http://www.newcelica.org/photopost/data/500/thumbs/11971DSC01169.JPG

[teerak2uk]

strange thing with the clio is the mil doesnt always come and and if it does rev it and hold @ 3000rpm for 10-20sec and clears
and no codes most of the time are available


strange huh

[Meat-Head]

strange thing with the clio is the mil doesnt always come and and if it does rev it and hold @ 3000rpm for 10-20sec and clears
and no codes most of the time are available


strange huh

not going to cost a lot to make, keep it for yourself after job fixed, bill punter for your time.

WORTH A GO DUDE, NOTHING TO LOOSE

[autoelectric]

@teerak2uk
Great post m8
I think DK is for this kind of posts

[teerak2uk]

Credits to MH i would`nt have known about this if it was`nt for him

[Meat-Head]

Credits to MH i would`nt have known about this if it was`nt for him

Only found that particular informaton by accident looking for ~~~~.

typed in MIL rather than MILF.

[teerak2uk]

Only found that particular informaton by accident looking for ~~~~.

typed in MIL rather than MILF.

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::rofl mao::roflmao: mind what you type next time

[dannyuk89]

try cleaning or replacing idle speed control valve

[teerak2uk]

try cleaning or replacing idle speed control valve

wont be the problem the complete electronic throttle body was swapped over

[rideon]

strange thing with the clio is the mil doesnt always come and and if it does rev it and hold @ 3000rpm for 10-20sec and clears
and no codes most of the time are available


strange huh


Not a strange thing if absolute pressure sensor inside ecu is "gone fishing" when you rev it the throttle is open that means that the manifold pressure = atmospheric pressure and the ecu calibrate itself .that's why in my first reply on this thread i ask you to check live data when the car is "broken"

[rideon]

@ teerak2uk (http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forums/members/48778-teerak2uk/) ,any update on clio ?

[teerak2uk]

not heard anything back from him yet (fingers crossed its sorted)

[Meat-Head]

so what did you do?

[teerak2uk]

Problem car 2001
donor car 2003

changed from a donor car i had

engine loom
inlet manifold/electronic throttle body
manifold pressure sensor
downstream oxygen probe

did try the cats but different fittings


last things i did was cat test via can clip which also cleaned it out as it was showing a temp of 700oC at the start meaning maybe a blockage and the about 500oC after the test which is around what a cat should be at and changed the engine temp sensor

so will have to wait and see but maybe has a cat on its way out