Advice buying electronic key cutting machine.

[frappes]

hello, to all members.

Finally, I will open my own locksmith business.
I have bought some second-hand manual key cutting machines from a locksmith who retired recently and I am looking buying an electronic cutting machine for cutting mostly car keys for AKL situations and if it is possible household keys also.

I am looking spending around 3.500 euros for an electronic key cutting machine.

So, cutting machines as futura pro unlimited, ninja total and miracle A9E I know they are good machines but I cannot afford them right now and also, they have very expensive clamps.

I had experience with CG Godzilla machine which I didn’t like at all.

Xhorse Dolphin machines seems to be most popular, a friend of mine has the dolphin xp005 and another the dolphin II.
Dolphin xp005 I consider it old as Dolphin II is now the current model and I am afraid maybe they will stop updates.
As for dolphin II, I borrow it from a friend for a job I had on 6 Mercedes spinter add key situation and the 3 first cars I did decode and then cut and it cut the key terrible it turned but it had cut it shallow, the other 3 car I cut by universal key copy and the keys worked like it should. I know about the hu64 keys types and this wasn’t the case of wrong hu64 key) this machine left me with a bitter taste.

The xhorse condor II I saw it few days before in a locksmith convention and I looked the menu of it and see that in household keys had very small number of key cards (mostly in Chinese letters which I didn’t understand at all (although the language was in English)), almost nothing. The dealer who had it there told me that he wasn’t suggest it for household keys and I better of buy the dolphin 1 or 2 and keep my money.
As for the making the key card on my own form scratch, I don’t have problem as I have made plenty of key cards in the past for silca cutting machines (code maker) but I don’t know if this function works on condor machines. (In CG Godzilla had problem with base cut settings and I contact the Godzilla engineers and they didn’t fix it).
(As far as I know all dolphins have anti backlash lead screw and condors have ball screw which make them more reliable and for long livability and repeatability)
Also, I would like to ask if someone knows if condor II can connect with instacode and cut keys from there (in the instacode site in the compare menu lists Xhorse Condor XC-Mini as instacode compatible machine but I don’t know if the later model (condor II is compatible too).

I also saw the kukai Alpha pro (in U.S. I believe they sell it as triton plus).
This machine doesn’t have a battery which I don’t care as I will run from car with inverter power supply (I think it comes standard with car lighter inverter power supply).
I saw its menu and it seems very good written. in the menu has key card creation tool (if it works) and it can cut household keys too.
Somewhere I read that it is driven by ball screw axles which is better that anti-backlash lead screw if someone can confirm it.
I would like to ask if someone has it and what’s his/her experience with this machine, what he/she didn’t like etc.

Another key cutting machine I consider is the keyline messenger, I talked to the dealer in my country (it is in the very limit of my money spending capability’s.)
It is very light and comes with anti-backlash lead screw it can be powered by 36volts bosch battery and a Bosch charger (the battery doesn’t charge in the cutting machine, need to be removed and placed in the Bosch charger (battery and charger not included in the base kit)
When on battery the main cutting motor turns 7500 rpm and on wall plug 10.000 rpm.
I asked the dealer to see the menu and he showed me a glimpse of 30 sec at most the menu from his mobile phone and told me that it uses the instacode database. I don’t know if it has code maker or if it can connect with instacode program. i don't know if it does what it says it does Also, the extra clamps seemed to be very expensive.
Has anyone had this machine to share his experience?

And finally, if someone does suggest another electronic cutting machine or has an advice, I would appreciate it.

Sorry for the very long post and thank you in advance.

[ranchero]

The only advise I can give - any machine has glitches, and many cars have specific quirks - keys can not be simply decoded and cut without knowing these quirks. There's always learning curve how to deal with these glitches and quirks, there's no way around it.
I use Dolphin, I know it's not ideal but in most cases it does the job after I learned some of its glitches.

[Spiritech]

If you're only going to have one key machine, make it one with a dealer or support representative locally in case you need help or parts.

I have Futura Pro & a Dolphin 2. Futura is every day machine, Dolphin is for universal duplication in the rare case there's no card available or when cutting keys the Futura doesn't like some Chinese vehicles.

Honestly I wouldn't use any of the Chinese machines as my every day machine, as their cutting quality just isn't as good as I'd like.

Your budget is however very limited and I wouldn't look at this as your forever machine and buy the one that has the most support available locally(even if this is another lockie familiar with your machine) and use it until you've made enough money to buy a real machine.

[fuzz1]

Hi
Is the futura pro the real machine you recommending?

[frappes]

i agree with you. my thought is to get a cheap machine for starting and then bought most likely a futura pro unlimited. and in the end of the day have the futura on shop and the cheap machine on car.
i know silca machines very well as i was working in a local silca dealer of my area as a technician repairing silca and keyline machines and in idle times i did assembly line for high end cylinders and cutting at least 100 keys on silca machines on a slow day (high end household keys) (quatrocode, triax pro, unocode pro, futura pro unlimited, keyline versa, keyline power lynx 933, keyline desmo etc etc). here silca has the best support, keyline not so much (i remember we had problems with communication mostly and they were very late on deliveries).
i asked dealer about messenger accessories catalogue ( clamps etc ) and that on keyline site i didn't find anything about the accessories and he told me that there isn't a accessories catalogue and i told him that this approach personally discourage me from buying this machine and push me away to buy a chinese one.

[rapidlocksmiths]

the was a ninja total for sale on the shoe repairer forum for £5500 https://shoerepairer.info/topic/31610-ninja-total/ , if you can stretch to keyline or silca you wont regret the choice .

[Spiritech]

Hi
Is the futura pro the real machine you recommending?

I've always used Silca machines so yes it is what I'd recommend as your 'main' machine. Others prefer keyline or JMA machines and that's okay too if it's what you're used to. But the fact is the Chinese machines from Alpha, Xhorse etc are just not the same quality level as a real key machine from a real supplier of keys.

But as I said the best machine when you are starting out is either the one you are already familiar with or the one with nearby, available support.

[Spiritech]

i agree with you. my thought is to get a cheap machine for starting and then bought most likely a futura pro unlimited. and in the end of the day have the futura on shop and the cheap machine on car.
i know silca machines very well as i was working in a local silca dealer of my area as a technician repairing silca and keyline machines and in idle times i did assembly line for high end cylinders and cutting at least 100 keys on silca machines on a slow day (high end household keys) (quatrocode, triax pro, unocode pro, futura pro unlimited, keyline versa, keyline power lynx 933, keyline desmo etc etc). here silca has the best support, keyline not so much (i remember we had problems with communication mostly and they were very late on deliveries).
i asked dealer about messenger accessories catalogue ( clamps etc ) and that on keyline site i didn't find anything about the accessories and he told me that there isn't a accessories catalogue and i told him that this approach personally discourage me from buying this machine and push me away to buy a chinese one.

I think you've already decided fella, if you can't stretch the budget to the Silca machine(being what you're used to) buy a Chinese machine and use it to bring in cash to fund a better machine. We all start somewhere, I bought a Futura Pro outright when I started on my own but that's because I'm a fussy bugger and I like my cut keys exactly right every time. Personally if I were starting over I'd probably buy the Condor as it's a pretty damn good machine even though it doesn't have the battery operation advantage of the Dolphin 2. Cutting quality is much the same between Condor and Dolphin from my direct comparison.

The major advantage of the Dolphin as a secondary machine after you buy a Silca, Keyline or JMA machine to supersede it is the battery operation. God forbid your service vehicle is written off and the machine with it you retain continuity of business by throwing that little Dolphin fully charged in the front footwell of your other car(or any car you can get quickly) and a few diagnostic tools + stock. The flexibility from that battery operation cannot be discounted should the worst happen.

[snapperlawnmower]

Buy quality the first time. Do not go cheap as all it is going to do is make you wish you didn't.

[p1et]

I would choose KeyLine Messenger. I owe Silca Unocode 299 and Silca Viper and just wondering about that Messenger machine. With Silca/KeyLine the quality is guaranteed, no stupid bugs ad frustration to cut a key. However you are right that KeyLine support and communication should be better.

BTW. You said you worked with Quattrocode. Can you tell me if somebody use this machine nowadays? I have one catching dust... Would like to sell it.

[davorOS]

hello

SILCA allways in my opinion..as You say You need only cars there is Viper on gumtree selling for 1500GBP
only down point it cost of aditional jaws

I have A5 and Triax Quattro and ther is no machine like Silca

[frappes]

I would choose KeyLine Messenger. I owe Silca Unocode 299 and Silca Viper and just wondering about that Messenger machine. With Silca/KeyLine the quality is guaranteed, no stupid bugs ad frustration to cut a key. However you are right that KeyLine support and communication should be better.

BTW. You said you worked with Quattrocode. Can you tell me if somebody use this machine nowadays? I have one catching dust... Would like to sell it.

the dealer i worked is current using it. i learned in this machine. silca support it through silca key programs (skp) until -12/2019 and then with skp pro (new program) 1/2020- , the only think you have to do is to have the hasp key and pay for the program annual fee and some money for "previous years fee" (as silca calls it)
there are two versions of quattrocode if i am not mistaken. one version with rs-232 serial port and one version newer with usb port. if you have the old one wth serial port you can buy a serial to usb bridge cable and use the machine on a newer windows desktop pc or laptop. and there are two kind of hasp keys the old one parallel port and the new usb, if you have the old parallel port you can buy the new usb from dealer. also be aware the usb to serial bridge cable. the most stable ones come with ftdi rs232 chip. cheaper ones with cha340 , pl2303 etc i would avoid them (this suggestion is for every machine - device that has rs232 and you want to convert it to usb) as they usually causing problems.

also instacode states that it is compatible with quatrocode so if you already have instacode you can feed the machine data from there. although i don't know if it works as i haven't tested or used it with instacode personally.

the quattrocode is a heavy duty machine build to last for a lifetime is more heavy duty than the triax pro i worked but is slower than it. it has almost the same speed as a futura pro unlimited v2 (10 percent faster than futura) i know this detail because this dealership had so many work that sometimes i cut with triax pro ,quattrocode and futura pro at the same time. i gone circle from machine to machine ( the one next to other) to feed keys for cut secuencial to each machine. quattrocode was a very expensive machine and is a BEAST . the boss one time told me that this machine was so expensive that the time he bought it (in 90s) had the same money as a small flat.
I am glad i had the opportunity to work and learn with such lengetery key cutting machines , i don't think that i will have the chance to work with these beasts any more.
all these old machines have nothing to envy from newer models they are doing the same work and i believe they are more reliable than newer.


for example i remember we had call all the time about futura losing calibration with cheap Chinese key blanks for cars, and always suggesting clients to reduce the cutting speed of the machine, the futura is designed to work with silca brass keys and not with super hard chinese cr*p keys that will destroy the cutter in no time and make the stepper motors of the machine slip and lose the stepping and then lose calibration.




i understand each company why year after year they make the machines lighter and lighter and eventually expendable for us to must change every few years.
the competition with the "beer boys" is very hard. i know that most luckily i wont get my money back from this investment but i love this job so much and i have spend the last 5 years learning and studying and training and that will be a shame to put all this in the trash bin.
for i already ordered autel 608 pro II full with all accessories, zedfull plus , i have clones for old cars that i know they work (zedbull, ak90, sbb, t300, etc etc ) silca universal cable , silca rw4 (gift from a friend), kd-max and keytool max pro for key generation and cloning (and smart aerial+ with green snoop for fast id48 96bit cloning in the future) and i know thanks to you guys when to put them and when to avoid to put them so i wont brick a car. in the future considering avdi and maybe tdb1000 ( very good uk made tool (greg the owner was co-owner of the advanced diagnostics ) my boss have it in my second job i did after the dealer, i was using it for mostly psa and opel and is very good in nissan too very quick tool and reliable). i have bought lots of lishi tools and know to work with them thanks to you guys and especially rapidlocksmiths i silently read his posts helping and teaching other people and the online magazine he and some other gendemen they write. tons of info for people they want to learn the right way. i am deeply grateful and appreciate the contribution you are doing. (sorry for the last off topic part)

[rapidlocksmiths]

hello

SILCA allways in my opinion..as You say You need only cars there is Viper on gumtree selling for 1500GBP
only down point it cost of aditional jaws

I have A5 and Triax Quattro and ther is no machine like Silca

ive had a viper for 20 years , still going strong and still cutting keys every day , yes the same one for £1500 is on market place and on other forums , its a good heavy duty machine for cars , though is now limited on its coverage , it wont cut a number of the newer keyways like hu162 etc , thus why its so hard to sell at present for the seller , despite being a great machine that will last forever , its coverage is now far less than the cheap china offerings .

though id not be without my viper , i also have an A6 and a ninja laser with all adaptors and clamps , i have a condor in workshop too and too many good manual machines as well , but the viper is my most worked machine , been on back of van for 20 years and still looks and works like it did new , only machine that has worked as hard as my viper is my old hpc blitz .

[davorOS]

it is Silca and that is end
we have shop from 1980 and Silca is first choice and the best choice
I still use my UNOCODE mk2 and Triax qautro every day and it is great to see how this machine still work.

[rob h]

The dolphin is ok now, they fixed some bugs.
Some small issues remain, but over time, they improve it.

It is not so expenisive, and has this universal duplication feature.
The clamps, are good, and the new model clamps, will be even better.
Tibbe Ford, and sx9, extra clamp, work very well.

The Dolphin is mobile, you take it where you need it.
And you can not rely on a single cutting tool. So it could become your backup, if you decide on a more expensive cutter.



The software updates, key to code, new types off keys.
Xhorse app provides this.