Peugeot 308 VCT Related fault

[enginetrouble]

Hi All,
trying to get some opinions on this fault, I have posted in other forums, so you may see this post somewhere else...

Having a bit of a problem with a Peugeot 308 MY 2008 petrol Prince engine EP6C and would appreciate your view and advice.
The fault I?m getting is:
P0014 Exhaust Camshaft Phasing Coherence Permanent.
The vehicle starts but after it warms up it runs really rough. actually now it runs rough from cold.
All the info I read, points to the VCT solenoid that controls the Exhaust Camshaft timing being faulty, so I fitted a new one but it made absolutely no difference. Then I thought maybe the camshaft sensor for the Exhaust camshaft is faulty so I fitted a new one of those too, no change whatsoever.
After looking for a bit more info online, it is obvious that this fault can have a multitude of causes, from wrong oil, to VCT mechanism fault. This is a pain as I don?t really know the history of the vehicle...
I decided at this point to scope the signals to the VCT, links for the pictures bellow:
At Startup
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxO...ew?usp=sharing
At Idle
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxO...ew?usp=sharing
at high revs
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxO...ew?usp=sharing

Scope traces for the Exhaust Camshaft sensor:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxO...ew?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxO...ew?usp=sharing
The strange part was that I managed to get the vehicle to run a couple of times well, not sure how but it did and the scope traces are the result. Please bear in mind that the waveforms are inverted.
On normal engine run, when the engine starts, the solenoid is at rest and the ECU is commanding it to start at around 10% duty cycle, then immediately the ECU varies the Duty cycle to around 50% and it stays like that at idle. As soon as I rev the engine the ECU commands the Solenoid to move from 50% up to around 90% duty cycle.
When not running correctly, the ECU is keeping the VCT solenoid signal always at start up position.
Armed with this info, I decided to try to prove that the VCT solenoid/oil/cam mechanism was working correctly. I measured both the new and old VCT?s internal resistance which was around 8 ohms and fitted a resistor of the same value in the connector coming from the ECU. This way the ECU will think that the Solenoid is still connected and not come up with another fault.
I then, using an Arduino board with a motor control shield, built a rig to drive the solenoid independently with the same voltage/current and the right duty cycle. This actually worked very well!
I started the vehicle and it was running rough, I then commanded, using my rig, the VCT solenoid to move to around 60% duty cycle and immediately the engine got the revs slightly higher and it run perfectly. Even when I rev it up, it was fine, not sure about efficiency and emissions, but it run fine.

Now, at this point I was expecting the ECU, as it is seeing the solenoid move independently of its control, would try to control but the ECU trace on the dummy solenoid never changed.

My understanding of the fault reported by the ECU is that when trying to control the VCT solenoid to a certain position, the camshaft sensor signal is not as expected. I think it is most likely comparing that signal with the crankshaft sensor signal to get the phase angle that the camshaft moved to but somehow it is not correct. Please correct me if I?m wrong.

I was a bit surprised with the camshaft sensor signal (see waveforms above). I was expecting a regular square wave signal, so at first I thought that was the problem, but after fitting a new sensor the signal was the same. I also scope the inlet camshaft sensor and the signal is similar so can only conclude that the signal is fine. It looks like some kind of PWM that in analogue terms with result in some sinusoidal signal. That sort of makes sense as it will help the ECU compare it with the crankshaft sensor signal.

I am heading for a diagnosis of a faulty ECU, but I am still not convinced? I am going back to the vehicle and scope the crankshaft sensor and compare it to the camshaft sensor to see if I can see anything unusual.

I would like to discount the ECU fault by completely clone the ECU to another used one. Unfortunately this vehicle is using the Bosch MEV17.4 ECU, which I have no kit to clone it with. I have a couple of programmers UPA, XProg and the FGTECH GALLETTO V54 but looking at info online this ECU has boot option disabled at the factory. If someone as a solution for this, it would be great. If it is possible to code a used ECU to the vehicle I would also be interested, I do have PP2000.
ECU:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxO...ew?usp=sharing

If any of you have any other ideas or suggestions for fault finding, it would be appreciated.
Thank you.
Best Regards
ET

[simaservis1108]

I had a problem like that on this car,it was a suspected ECU fault.
It was a fault in the camshaft axial tolerances,causing the ECU to think the car is not timed correctly.
Owned changed the top engine part,engine head,and all was resolved.

Regards,
Sima

[Zmann]

Have no any other suggestion but to say that the ECU is simply cloneable by FGT v54 via CAN lines and boot mode. If need pinout I or members can upload the images. But suggestion from simaservis is meaningful!

[enginetrouble]

Have no any other suggestion but to say that the ECU is simply cloneable by FGT v54 via CAN lines and boot mode. If need pinout I or members can upload the images. But suggestion from simaservis is meaningful!

I did find something on the forum for it, may give it a go...

ECU_MEV17.4Boot.jpg

I am not very convinced about the ECU issue, hence would like to get a second one, clone it and once and for all get that out of the way.
What I don't want to do is send the ECU to be tested and repaired for ?250 upwards and find out that was nothing wrong with it.
The option of getting a second hand one (~?100) and clone it seems like a better option.
Thank you.
Best Regards
Luis

[enginetrouble]

I had a problem like that on this car,it was a suspected ECU fault.
It was a fault in the camshaft axial tolerances,causing the ECU to think the car is not timed correctly.
Owned changed the top engine part,engine head,and all was resolved.

Regards,
Sima

Hi Sima,
that seems a route to explore, do you think there is anyway of confirming that the tolerances are the fault, any testing i can do?
It seems to me that, if I can clone the ecu and test that first, that would be cheaper.
I do actually think that this is more likely to be the fault than the ECU, but changing the engine head is a more difficult/more expensive route at the moment...
I will see if I can find some more info relating to the camshaft axial tolerances, but for now I haven't found a thing.
Thank you.
Best Regards
ET

[ammarben]

try to clean the VCT solenoid that controls the Exhaust Camshaft timing

[rideon]

1 Read posts no 2/3and 6
2 Check oil pressure
3 Use Thanks button

[enginetrouble]

try to clean the VCT solenoid that controls the Exhaust Camshaft timing

Hi,
A new VCT was fitted as part of the tests I have done.
Thnak you.
Best Regards
ET

[enginetrouble]

1 Read posts no 2/3and 6
2 Check oil pressure
3 Use Thanks button

Hi,
Will check oil pressure, but if it was out of spec, you would think I would get a fault code for that...
Thank you.
Best Regards
ET

[chacarita]

Hi i could heplyou, post youre vin number , if i undertand well you have a synchro problem, did you check timing?, sometimes there are some chasin stretch. anyway sendme vin so i can check in service box

[autoden]

Where are you connected for reading with scope? Are you at the ECU or sensor end? You need to know what the ECU is seeing. If any doubt, send the ECU for test and repair. Lots of them on the web.
autoden

[alessioblaupunkt]

Stop mister.
This is a THP engine. Full of problems, made by BMW that denied to be recalled.
There are similars post about those Pug, have a look at'em:

http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forums...highlight=5008

http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forums...05-Peugeot-308

[enginetrouble]

Hi i could heplyou, post youre vin number , if i undertand well you have a synchro problem, did you check timing?, sometimes there are some chasin stretch. anyway sendme vin so i can check in service box

Hi,
the VIN Number is VF34C5FWC55009158
Thank you.
Best Regards
ET

[enginetrouble]

Where are you connected for reading with scope? Are you at the ECU or sensor end? You need to know what the ECU is seeing. If any doubt, send the ECU for test and repair. Lots of them on the web.
autoden

Hi,
I'm connected at the Sensor end, but I have no reason to doubt that ECU is receiving the signal, all the wiring around the ECU seems good and if I disconnect the sensor all together the ECU comes up with a suitable fault for open circuit so seems to get the signal fine.
Indeed the repair is an option but at ?300 it is a bit steep hence I would like to explore any other possible fault before spending that money.
Best Regards
ET

[chacarita]

Hi,
the VIN Number is VF34C5FWC55009158
Thank you.
Best Regards
ET

I found something:
Reading the fault codes.
Check for the presence of swarf in the slide valve of the camshaft dephaser control solenoid valve.
Replacement of the camshaft dephaser control solenoid valve(s) (If necessary).
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=&quot]Downloading of the engine management ECU software.
2.1. Parts required

Solenoid valve controlling the camshaft dephaser (Quantity depending on the result of the check) (Part No. depending on vehicle definition).
1 Oil filter (Part No. depending on vehicle definition).
1 Drain cap seal (Part No. depending on vehicle definition)
2.3. Reading the fault codes

ESSENTIAL : It is compulsory to carry out the diagnostics using the diagnostic tool in connected mode with compulsory authentication of the user - Fault finding mode and application of the "Technical Service Bulletin" process

Read the fault codes :

• In the presence of one or more of the following fault code(s) P0011, P11A9, P0014, P11A8, P000A, P000B : Carry out the check + Download the engine management ECU software
• If there are other fault codes : This information does not apply

2.4. Check

Remove the solenoid valve of the camshaft dephasers system concerned :

• Inlet : P0011, P11A9, P000A
• Exhaust : P0014, P11A8, P000B